Discussion:
It's been 19 years since my last Common Lisp confession, er, s-expression
(too old to reply)
JDT
2020-08-28 13:06:19 UTC
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I've been using clojure the last 7 or so years, but have been feeling a bit nostalgic for common lisp.

My question is whether common lisp is still ... alive ...
Are people still using CL? I know SBCL is getting updates, my heroes, I sleep better knowing SBCL is there :-)

I thought the CL21 effort (https://github.com/cl21/cl21) looked interesting, but it's been 6 years since it had its last update.

Is there some other place CL people are chatting these days, like a slack or IRC channel? Because there seems to be very little activity in this group except for certain spammers. Not zero activity, just not ... much ... activity.

I've been enjoying Clojure, but there are days I sure miss mutable structures, CLOS, and a compiler that actually complains (at compile time) when invalid keywords are specified. That said, I have grown fond of vector, set, and hashtable syntax in clojure (which is why I was looking at CL21).

Anyway, pointers to CL community activity would be welcome.
His Kennyness
2020-08-28 17:27:44 UTC
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Post by JDT
I've been using clojure the last 7 or so years, but have been feeling a bit nostalgic for common lisp.
My question is whether common lisp is still ... alive ...
Are people still using CL? I know SBCL is getting updates, my heroes, I sleep better knowing SBCL is there :-)
I thought the CL21 effort (https://github.com/cl21/cl21) looked interesting, but it's been 6 years since it had its last update.
Is there some other place CL people are chatting these days, like a slack or IRC channel? Because there seems to be very little activity in this group except for certain spammers. Not zero activity, just not ... much ... activity.
I've been enjoying Clojure, but there are days I sure miss mutable structures, CLOS, and a compiler that actually complains (at compile time) when invalid keywords are specified. That said, I have grown fond of vector, set, and hashtable syntax in clojure (which is why I was looking at CL21).
Anyway, pointers to CL community activity would be welcome.
We prefer to think of it as still dead, but no deader than usual.

hth, hk
Arseny Slobodyuk
2020-09-01 23:11:31 UTC
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Post by His Kennyness
We prefer to think of it as still dead, but no deader than usual.
BTW, how ancient people would formulate what we now call "Lisp is dead"?
The oldest "L.I.D." message I could find dates back to 1990 ("why lisp
is dead" thread. The Lisp machine concept was declared dead in 1989),
but I can't believe Lisp wasn't dead in 1980x already. Probably they
used delicate wording like "left us", "passed away" or "deceased"...
Dave Tenny
2020-09-01 23:43:02 UTC
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Post by Arseny Slobodyuk
Post by His Kennyness
We prefer to think of it as still dead, but no deader than usual.
BTW, how ancient people would formulate what we now call "Lisp is dead"?
The oldest "L.I.D." message I could find dates back to 1990 ("why lisp
is dead" thread. The Lisp machine concept was declared dead in 1989),
but I can't believe Lisp wasn't dead in 1980x already. Probably they
used delicate wording like "left us", "passed away" or "deceased"...
I'm not sure lisp was perceived as dead, at least by the lisp community, in the 80's. The X3J13 work was ongoing at that time, and there were a number of vendors still clinging to profitability selling CL implementations. However... notice my qualifier, "by the lisp community". Certainly sales weren't exactly tearing along and a lot of lisp vendors became comatose (if they didn't die) around or shortly after that time. If you worked making and selling lisp, it was difficult to acknowledge that your days may have been numbered.

I founded a company in 1999 based on common lisp software, but the way it ended up (badly) is also the reason I didn't touch common lisp again for 19 years. Though lisp was only a small part of the problem I definitely had _an_ issue with "lack of viable support" for some of the lisp tooling I was using at the time.

The reason I'm spending any cycles on it now is one part nostalgia and one part being impressed with the fact that there does appear to be at least _some_ current activity in CL and SBCL is chugging along after all this time. Well, and maybe a third part "Clojure fatique" ... those days where (for example) flaky implementation artifacts of things like (CLojure's) defmethod cost me hours of debugging. This makes me remember CL more fondly than perhaps it deserves. Still, simply revisiting CL at this time also makes me appreciate some of the tremendous things accomplished by the Clojure community (and Rich Hickey) as well.

Either way, it's always nice to have options.
Dave Tenny
2020-09-01 23:47:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arseny Slobodyuk
Post by His Kennyness
We prefer to think of it as still dead, but no deader than usual.
BTW, how ancient people would formulate what we now call "Lisp is dead"?
The oldest "L.I.D." message I could find dates back to 1990 ("why lisp
is dead" thread. The Lisp machine concept was declared dead in 1989),
but I can't believe Lisp wasn't dead in 1980x already. Probably they
used delicate wording like "left us", "passed away" or "deceased"...
Adding one more thing for perspective, as 1990 was when C++ still used _macros_ to implement clumsy generics, we lispers of the day were very fond of saying "I use lisp because I know C++", and it was a pretty accurate conveyance of the state of (those two) programming languages at the time. People weren't exactly running to embrace some of the newer languages. Of course this was long before we had so many language development tools and people were making their own DSLs on a daily basis (without the aid of lisp).
Paul Rubin
2020-09-02 01:08:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arseny Slobodyuk
but I can't believe Lisp wasn't dead in 1980x already. Probably they
used delicate wording like "left us", "passed away" or "deceased"...
Pining for the fjords.
Stefan Monnier
2020-09-02 01:31:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arseny Slobodyuk
but I can't believe Lisp wasn't dead in 1980x already.
It's hard to know what the future holds, but I assume that none of us
will be very much alive in 1980x.

As for Lisp in the 198x, I think it was still quite alive with several
new dialects appearing in that decade. It's only in the 199x that
things starting going south, I think (at least if you take the death of most
commercial implementations as such a sign).


Stefan
Arseny Slobodyuk
2020-09-02 07:27:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Paul Rubin
Pining for the fjords.
Great, thanks!
But 'e's not pinin'! 'E's passed on! This language is no more! He has
ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff!
Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im to the perch
'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory!
'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal
coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible!!
THIS IS AN EX-LANGUAGE!!
none) (albert
2020-09-02 10:34:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arseny Slobodyuk
Post by Paul Rubin
Pining for the fjords.
Great, thanks!
But 'e's not pinin'! 'E's passed on! This language is no more! He has
ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff!
Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im to the perch
'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory!
'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal
coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible!!
THIS IS AN EX-LANGUAGE!!
Python references are more appropriate in comp.lang.python.

Groetjes Albert
--
This is the first day of the end of your life.
It may not kill you, but it does make your weaker.
If you can't beat them, too bad.
***@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst
JDT
2020-08-29 11:28:31 UTC
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An old lisp colleague pointed me at https://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/ as a source of lisp discussion.

Whether it's a quality discussion I have no idea, but it certainly seems quite a bit more active than this group.
Arseny Slobodyuk
2020-08-30 09:33:07 UTC
Permalink
On 28.08.2020 23:06, JDT wrote:

OMG not again.
There are archives of this group since 1982 and the thing is, all
questions that could be asked were already asked and answered very
competently.
Madhu
2020-08-30 10:08:21 UTC
Permalink
OMG not again. There are archives of this group since 1982 and the
thing is, all questions that could be asked were already asked and
answered very competently.
But no, I've still got a few unanswered questions here - no satisfactory
answers.

" until the last user is dead. "
Arseny Slobodyuk
2020-08-30 11:46:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Madhu
OMG not again. There are archives of this group since 1982 and the
thing is, all questions that could be asked were already asked and
answered very competently.
But no, I've still got a few unanswered questions here - no satisfactory
answers.
Well, nobody talked about satisfaction.
JDT
2020-08-31 10:37:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Arseny Slobodyuk
OMG not again.
There are archives of this group since 1982 and the thing is, all
questions that could be asked were already asked and answered very
competently.
Yes thank you. I was lisping in the 80's, I remember it quite well.
However my questions were about the _current_ state of common lisp discussion, and clearly in this particular group the current state of discussion is nothing more than a bunch of intemperate personalities wanting to demonstrate ther poorly conceived notions of what constitutes discussion in 2020.

It's pretty clear I can take comp.lang.lisp off my reading.
His Kennyness
2020-08-31 12:16:21 UTC
Permalink
...clearly in this particular group the current state of discussion is nothing more than a bunch of intemperate personalities wanting to demonstrate ther poorly conceived notions of what constitutes discussion in 2020.
It's pretty clear I can take comp.lang.lisp off my reading.
You are going to love Twitter. It has 2020 written all over it.

hk
Nils M Holm
2020-08-31 13:15:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by JDT
It's pretty clear I can take comp.lang.lisp off my reading.
You can hear the crickets most of the time, but every now and
then an interesting discussion develops. Maybe a more concrete
suggestion or question will evoke more useful follow-ups.
--
Nils M Holm < n m h @ t 3 x . o r g > www.t3x.org
Mirko Vukovic
2020-08-31 17:56:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by JDT
I've been using clojure the last 7 or so years, but have been feeling a bit nostalgic for common lisp.
My question is whether common lisp is still ... alive ...
Are people still using CL? I know SBCL is getting updates, my heroes, I sleep better knowing SBCL is there :-)
I thought the CL21 effort (https://github.com/cl21/cl21) looked interesting, but it's been 6 years since it had its last update.
Is there some other place CL people are chatting these days, like a slack or IRC channel? Because there seems to be very little activity in this group except for certain spammers. Not zero activity, just not ... much ... activity.
I've been enjoying Clojure, but there are days I sure miss mutable structures, CLOS, and a compiler that actually complains (at compile time) when invalid keywords are specified. That said, I have grown fond of vector, set, and hashtable syntax in clojure (which is why I was looking at CL21).
rutils (https://github.com/vseloved/rutils) might have items of interest to you.
Post by JDT
Anyway, pointers to CL community activity would be welcome.
Dave Tenny
2020-09-01 01:26:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Mirko Vukovic
rutils (https://github.com/vseloved/rutils) might have items of interest to you.
Thanks much, I saw that. Looks like it's receiving updates relatively recently too.
Mirko Vukovic
2020-09-01 15:49:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dave Tenny
Post by Mirko Vukovic
rutils (https://github.com/vseloved/rutils) might have items of interest to you.
Thanks much, I saw that. Looks like it's receiving updates relatively recently too.
The author is also responsive to issues raised on GitHub
Elijah Stone
2020-09-02 02:57:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by JDT
Is there some other place CL people are chatting these days, like a
slack or IRC channel? Because there seems to be very little activity in
this group except for certain spammers. Not zero activity, just not ...
much ... activity.
Try #lisp on irc.freenode.net. (Also ##lisp; the former is for cl
specifically, the latter is for the whole family.)
--
time flies like an arrow;
fruit flies like a banana
Zyni Moë
2020-09-06 15:24:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by JDT
I've been using clojure the last 7 or so years, but have been feeling a
bit nostalgic for common lisp.
My question is whether common lisp is still ... alive ...
Are people still using CL? I know SBCL is getting updates, my heroes, I
sleep better knowing SBCL is there :-)
Think is not dead. Certainly is much easier to write CL programs now with
Quicklisp, SLIME / SLY than ever has been. Many high-quality
implementations. MOP effectively standardised. System construction solved
(ASDF is a monster but a standard one).

What is dead is comp.lang.lisp, many other fora. Well, Facebook and Google
killed these things.
--
the small snake
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